| martianunlimited | 1. Does your chucrh practice speaking of tongues? | 2007-01-01 23:32:56
martianunlimited(Fri, 29th Dec 2006 11:46:15am)
My 2 cents, Corinthians appear to imply that our Pentacostal brothers are not using the gift of tongues correctly. Hence is that a gift from God or from the devil? I wouldn't dare to judge. (context: blesphemy against the Holy Spirit) Do we dare claim we are doing everything correctly and to the letter (of the Word)? I wouldn't dare say yes. Does it really matter? (I was out of my mind when i type this) Not really.
Modern day Pharisee would claim, we gave bigger tithes, we prayed more, we broke bread more, our women wear veil, our songs are more spiritual, our youths are more fired up for God, but what did the vision of St John had of the Church in Ephesus? They did everything right... but they lost their first love.
I'd rather churches focus on their devotion to God and their responsibility to the community around them. then to argue on minor doctrinal things. Obediences to whatever practice will come naturally as the members are convicted to do so.
Ah Pek, what do you think, what do you feel should be the primary focus of the churches?
p/s Jack's right.. silent meditation = focusing your mind on God/Christ not emptying your mind of everything.
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Jack(Fri, 29th Dec 2006 10:51:29am)
Sounds good ah pek. My ex roomie from Uni is also called ah pek. So there's a warm affinity when we communicate and i don't feel at all offended. There'll shan't be questions too "bad" to ask so long as it's not rude and vulgar.
It's always humbling to graple with doubts and questions because it only reminds us that we are humans.
Holy - this is actually another way of saying "utterly different". God is holy, god is the utterly dffierent One from his Creation. It is not only moral perfection, but also all the notions of justice, righteousness, glory etc.
We believe in a god who is three in persons and the third person (the first, second, third declension has nothing to do with status) is called God the Spirit. Since it's god, we call him holy. therefore Holy Spirit.
How do we know Holy Spirit from evil spirit? One very good test is that no evil spirit will glorify Jesus as Lord, at least not now (the bible did say that one day, every knees shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord). And as I have mentioned, there will be fruit of the spirit which is the outward manifestation of an inward change of heart by god's spirit.
And of course, god being our loving Father will not give us a snake if we ask for a fish. If we ask for Holy Spirit, he will not give us a crazy spirit.
The HS though indwelling believers will never take absolute possession of the believers (or at least very very rare i guess), so a sincere spirit-filled christian may be influenced by other factors to speak in gibberish langugage thinking he is speaking in what the bible called "tongue". Opinions differ whether miracles still occur today, I for one blive in miracles, but i do not blive that the tongue spoken in New Testatment churches are gibberish languages, non-human words or meaningless noises. So I believe my charismatic/pentecostal brothers and sisters are sincerely mistaken in this sense.
Also silent meditation is different from "emptying your mind meditation". Silent means, everyone shuts up. what transpire in the mind, i dunno..hehehe... but there are more to eastern meditation than the comments by christians on them. I am an amateur student of eastern religion and thoughts and i appreciate a lot of points in our eastern culture.
But I think if we look beyond the surfacial issue of speaking in tongue, we will really see the meaning of Pentecost - YHWH reversing Babel! While in Babel god confused the languages of the people, causing discord and chaos, in Jesus Christ, god unite and reconcile the Church (symbolizing his ppl in the world) not by taking away their confused languages, but by enabling them to speak with one mind proclaiming the same Lord. This was his plan from begining, a people for himself.
Galadriel is right, we need a forum, this space is too small...i can barely read what i wrote up there... Martian, what think you?
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Galadriel(Fri, 29th Dec 2006 10:38:44am)
Regarding speaking in tongue, We learn then from Scripture that tongues were foreign languages. not those so call 'gibberish sounds u heard from the church u been to. u could learn more of tongue form this web page 'http://allanturner.com/tongues02.html'
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Galadriel(Fri, 29th Dec 2006 10:19:42am)
Hey jack, continue like this n we might as well open a forum ledi.There u can talk as much as u like... hahax...
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ah pek(Thu, 28th Dec 2006 9:32:22am)
How do u define a spirit as holy and not otherwise? In one of the reply, there is a mention about silent meditation. Just to take a quote frm one of an ex-occultist "Visualizing, guided imagery, meditation and blanking your mind are excellent ways to invite demons into your life. The demon finds your mind blank and re-enters with seven spirits more evil than itself." I remember going to one of the church & during one of the worship ppl around me starts closing their eyes & making gibberish sound with their hands raising in the air etc. It definitely does not sounds like a language. My questions is were this ppl too were led by the same Holy Spirit jus as what u mention? If yes, then how come you do not practice the give of tongues speaking assuming that it is frm the Holy Spirit (I assume frm your reply that ur church do not practice)?
I hope you guys are not offended by my questions, I meant it in good faith. Juz would like to hv a discussion tats all. My regards to all of u
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ah pek(Thu, 28th Dec 2006 8:50:39am)
Ah pek is a freethinker frm Pg who spends his free time reading topics which are of interest to him. Ah pek got to know this site through a friend.
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Galadriel(Wed, 27th Dec 2006 10:45:24pm)
Juz like to know a few things from you ah pek..where r u from? what chuch u go to? How do u know of this web? Do reply if possible ^_^
As for your question, its reply by Jack. Hope 2 see ya soon..
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Jack(Wed, 27th Dec 2006 9:00:07pm)
Practice? I don't quite understand.
But our congregation strongly believes in the Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
We believe in the inspiration of the bible by the Holy Spirit, the utter necessity of the Holy Spirit to convict and quicken the sinner's heart of stone, i.e. the regeneration. We believe that regenerated Christians need to be constantly filled with the Holy Spirit as commanded in Ephesians 5
We believe in the fruits of the Holy Spirit which will inevitably manifest in the regenerated believers.
We believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit to empower the Church as opposed to natural talents.
In our worship, we practice "open worship", i.e. letting the Holy Spirit inspire the congregation to share a verse, a hymn, or a msg, or even a moment of silent meditation. The Holy Spirit is our worship leader and guide to honour Jesus, which was His work as taught by Jesus in the gospel.
I don't represent the brethren assembly exhaustively and belief differs on some points, but I guess the above are the main points many of us hold to.
How about introducing yourself, pek? Nice having you drop in.
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ah pek(Wed, 27th Dec 2006 7:07:58pm)
Does your chucrh practice speaking of tongues? | | ah pek | 2. RE: Does your chucrh practice speaking of tongues? | 2007-01-04 09:32:30
You wrote "a sincere spirit-filled christian may be influenced by other factors to speak in gibberish langugage thinking he is speaking in what the bible called "tongue". SINCERE spirit-filled christian yet influence by other factors...doesn't these statement contradict each other?
1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. Doesn't this verse also tells us that tongue is not something which is understood by everyone who hears it? Shouldn't there be an intrepreter available in church to interpret if it is genuine?
The Apostle Paul wrote, "He who speaks in tongues edifies himself...I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:4,5). My understanding is that Paul encourage the believers to speak in tongues. Your thoughts? | | martianunlimited | 3. RE: Does your chucrh practice speaking of tongues? | 2007-01-05 03:47:38
>> 1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray >> for the power to interpret. Doesn't this verse also tells us that tongue is >> not something which is understood by everyone who hears it? Shouldn't >> there be an intrepreter available in church to interpret if it is genuine?
That's what i was refering to when I i said that our pentacostal brothers may not be using it in accordance to scriptures.
Firstly, that verse seems to imply that the one speaking it should consciously know what is being said. Next, the converse question, doesn't that verse imply that somebody should understand what is being said and explain that to the rest of the congregation? This wasn't really practiced in the charismatic churches in Klang Valley (at least the ones I attended before, FGA, AOG, Acts, DUMC) .
Now... does that matter? Personally I don't think it's such a big thing (contrary to what some pastors/elders in either side of the fence may think) Purportedly I have the "gift of prophecy" should I be so careful as to check all my "prophecies" and make sure it is true lest i be stoned? (of course!) Should I then stop giving words of encouragement telling to a brother or sister what I *feel* they are capable of, or should be careful about lest it becomes "a false prophecy"? (i don't think so!). When it comes true is it from God? when it doesn't is it from the devil?
>> The Apostle Paul wrote, "He who speaks in tongues edifies himself...I
>> would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Corinthians 14:4,5).
>> My understanding is that Paul encourage the believers to speak in
>> tongues. Your thoughts?
My thoughts... will be to continue to reading until verse 9... (i don't like it when pastors just stop on verse 5... it's like quoting Psalms and saying that "there is no God" without reading the "saith the fool")
Paul also asks believers to desire greater gifts... and in the order of mention, tongues seems to be at the bottom of the list. Personally I would have prefered the gift of prophecies but i guess that is not for everyone. Then again, there is the gift of teaching, gift of giving, gift of administration, gift of healing, and the gift of working miracles in people's lives. (oops.. missed out gift of apostleship)
Side note, i am assuming that this context (1st Cor 13,14) is glosolasia, although i am quite sure it is dialektos, but i have been proven wrong more times then i could remember | |
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